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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is my Marlin Guide Gun, the only change I have made is to put a Skinner Sight on the rear which is not shown right now.


From 300-gr JHP, 405-gr Rem JSP, 405-gr RNFP, 500-gr Elk Buster
 

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that sure does look like its got some authority to it!!!!
 

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Fine rifle!!! Guess your walkin' security system's doing her job....
 

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Good looking GG, who’s brass are you using on the Elk Buster?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
XLCH said:
Good looking GG, who’s brass are you using on the Elk Buster?
That one is loaded using W-W brass, and is very nice handling in the ol Guide Gun. You just never know when trouble is going to strike..........

Like when playing a round of Golf, you think your pretty safe playing the game..... right? Well this is when the ol Guide Gun packs nice in your golf bag or cart.




Here is a pic of my 500-gr Elk Buster both and the Beartooth Bullet 525-gr Pile Driver which are great bear bullets.
 

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Still haven't gotten a Marlin...about decided a SS rifle between 30-30 and .45-70--how much more for the factory ammo on 45-70? How much harder hitting is it than the 30-30? If it were used on a car , would the 45-70 stop it any better? I just can't get into .223, and can't afford M1A now.....but I "need" a rifle...advice????
 

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Great rifle Montanan.
Sheepdog, I have a Marlin ss336 in 30-30, I never even use. It'll stop a car. You just have to kinda point it at the drivers forehead.
 

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Montanan said:
XLCH said:
Good looking GG, who’s brass are you using on the Elk Buster?
That one is loaded using W-W brass, and is very nice handling in the ol Guide Gun. You just never know when trouble is going to strike..........

Like when playing a round of Golf, you think your pretty safe playing the game..... right? Well this is when the ol Guide Gun packs nice in your golf bag or cart.




Here is a pic of my 500-gr Elk Buster both and the Beartooth Bullet 525-gr Pile Driver which are great bear bullets.


I have a Lee 500 GC mold that I'm going to try this year, maybe I can talk up Golf if it shoots good :lol:
 

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Montanan
Figure a G is needed since I play a lot of golf which is, obviously, very risky. Do you have a low recoil plinking loads you like? My teenage grandsons will be shooting it also and they may not be up to the hot rod loads us "more expierenced" guys like.

Writer Paul Mathews notes in his book "Forty Years with the .45-70" his "utility load - 10 grs of Unique behind the RCBS 45-300-FN". He goes on to point out "This load has a muzzle velocity of 940 fps and at 50 yards will crowd five shots into nearly an inch any time I feel like shooting". He also says he has used more pounds of Unique over the years than all other powders combined. Mathews goes on to say he always uses Large Pistol Primers with Unique and never uses filler, except with the "utility bullet".

What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Chance - If you get that RCBS mold be sure to get a .459-45-300 do not use the same diamiter bullet as a jacketed, with cast always .001 to .002 bigger in dia for best accuracy.

Sheepdog - If your not into country that has grizz or black bear and are not going to hunt elk, the ol trusted 30-30 will serve real well. My favorite lever (center fire rifles) are .44 mag/spl, .45 Colt, 30-30, .35 Rem, 45-70 but also reload for .444 Marlin. Remember pistol cartridge firing leverguns hold a higher round count and have plenty of smackdown, and also if you go to the shelf to buy for your revolver in the same caliber, they each use the same ammo.

The .223 Rem in some circles is very over rated and is not a good penetrator on autos or even a man stopper if shot placement is not placed very well.

I love slow moving BIG bullets and for the smackdown they deliver. The ol 45-70 that I carry is BIG bear medicine and that is why I love it so well.

Here is a picture of another hunter that took this Coastal Brown up in Alaska using a 45-70's

"The bear had been hit once with a 375 H&H, but wound not go down. When he turn and started running in the opposite direction I hit him in the rump with the 45-70 at about 120 yards. He went only about 30 yards more before stopping. When we skinned him we found the 420 gr Hammerhead had entered on his right side rump, passing though and destroyed the pelvis. I recovered the bullet under the skin beyond the right front shoulder (full length penetration). The bear squared 9'6'' and had a 25 5/8" skull.

Amazing penetration!"

Paul Lenmark, Boise, ID (coastal grizzly guide)

Here is another one, that was taken at 20 yards


Here is the story of this picture below about using Garrett Ammunition

"Mr. Garrett, I am a Master Guide in Alaska and a Licensed Professional Hunter in Africa. I have made a full time living as guide since 1975 and have over the years tested the bullets from every major bullet maker and from most of the custom bullet makers. I chose to use your 45-70 ammo because it is by far the best. I do not believe that any better load exists to go into thick brush after a wounded Grizzly.
When my 8 year old son (Jason) decided that he wanted to hunt Grizzly with me on the Alaska Peninsula I was pleased as he had decided this on his own with no prompting from me. (I do not believe in pushing kids into doing what the parents do) This became a goal that the two of us shared together as a father and son team. Over 9 months we prepared for his hunt. Lots of target practice for him with a 22. We spent last winter cross country skiing and practicing shooting from a variety of real life field conditions.

I had unlimited choices of rifles and calibers that my son could use. I have custom rifles in medium and big bore up to 470 Nitro. We also have friends with custom rifles made for kids that wanted to loan some very fine rifles to Jason. We decided on Jason using a factory rifle, the Marlin Guide Rifle in 45-70. The only modifications that were made was installation of peep sights, 2" cut off the stock and a decelerator pad installed. Dry fire practice and getting into kneeling and prone positions was the first thing Jason worked on with the 45-70. After he was proficient at that I let him fire a few factory 405 gr. loads from a kneeling position. I needed to see if he could handled the recoil. Jason did okay but it was too much for him to practice with. After that I only let him used the rifle with a 45 ACP adapter made by MCA Sports. This adapter let him shoot 45 pistol ammo and practice a lot so he did not develop a flinch. We never used a bullseye target for his practice. We used a paper archery target of a life sized grizzly standing broad side. No aiming point to see so he had to learn to target on the shoulder himself.

The end result is that 9 year old Jason shot a beautiful 8' 7" Grizzly with your 45-70 ammo. From 45 yards the 540 gr. bullet struck the bear broadside in the left shoulder. Breaking the shoulder, going through the rib cage on both sides and breaking the right shoulder, then exiting the bear. This was a devastating blow to a tough animal. The bear made one jump when hit then collapsed dead 18 feet from where he was standing.
Thank you for making the excellent ammo that helped make my son's hunt a success. "
Jerry Jacques
Here is another fine smack down using the 45-70



Now mind you, all of these bears were dispatched with BIG HEAVY bullets from Randy Garrett Ammunition, but it gets my point delivered about the smackdown.

And here is an Elk that was taken down where knowing your rifle and bullet shine and this was shot with a muzzle velocity of 1650 fps @ 275 yards.

Tony Makris, Host of ESPN's Under Wild Skies - 275-yds w/45-70 GOVT

I will try and get up to the upper pasture where I hit a steel plate that has been hit with 30-30 and other 30 cal bullets that penetrated the steel because of the magnum loads, and you will see that they penetrated the steel because of bullet design. The last time I was up there, I shot it and hit center causing the steel to curl from the impact of a 405-gr JSP loaded at 1550 fps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
This big 2,000 pound herd bull was taken with one 540-grainer by Jim Audette. Here are his comments: "

"We followed fresh sign for a couple hours and finally spotted four large bulls bedded in the heavy timber. These Bison spend much of the time bedded on the edge of the timber and emerge to feed throughout the day. We positioned ourselves down-wind and got within 50 yards. We had to wait nearly 30 minutes for the animals to turn broadside before I could take a shot. I aimed for the lower left shoulder and, when I felt the offside was clear of any other animals; I sent one of your 540 grainers through his shoulder. The terminal performance of the 540 Hammerhead is unbelievable. The animal was quartering towards from me at about 45 degrees. The bullet shattered his shoulder, took out both lungs and exited. Upon further review, seven large pieces of his shoulder bone took out the top of his heart, while the bullet took out the rear portion of his lungs and two ribs on the way out. Seeing such a large animal get slammed to the ground is something to behold!"

Jim Audette
 

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jb,

what's the law of diminsihin' returns on them bigger bullets?

i know ya half to keep an eye on overal cartridge length with the levers for function.....

i know the heaverier bulllet is giving up velocity due to it havin' to take up so much powder space. What is about the heaviest bullet you use in that lever that is the best compromise as far as velocity vs mass?
 

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Montanan,
I don't hunt anymore(except with a 35mm Pentax), but I been thinkin--one of Marlins
guide guns might make a great addition to the home defense arsenal when the goin really
gets down to the nitty gritty really gets gritty and the handgun won"t do the job. What do
you think ? You know the last ditch kinda thing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
deputy125 said:
jb,

what's the law of diminsihin' returns on them bigger bullets?

i know ya half to keep an eye on overal cartridge length with the levers for function.....

i know the heaverier bulllet is giving up velocity due to it havin' to take up so much powder space. What is about the heaviest bullet you use in that lever that is the best compromise as far as velocity vs mass?
.

The trade off is this, your shooting a very hard cast bullet which does not take alot of FPS to push it thru anything that walks. The 45-70 was never intended to be a flat shooter... NEVER. But those with magnum idus I call it, want to take it up to Mach 3 sonic boom speeds. The trade off is this, the faster you go the more mass distruction you have, like those that are using 300-gr JHP bullets at 1950 plus FPS. The hit a deer at this speed will have massive distruction of meat, and wonder why because of explosive bullet performance. A 2000 pound bison hit with a 405-gr JSP at 1250 fps, mushrooms and causes little if any meat damage at all, being recovered on the off side just under the hide planting that bison down, as he just hit with connectic energy because of the slow FPS.

The reason solids such as Super Hard Cast bullets are used is for the bone braking ability such as the Coastal Brown that the pelvis was broke at 125 yards. Some trade off there in either wanting a bullet such as the 405-gr JSP or a super hard cast that includes a 540-gr or even 560-gr depending on how deep you can seat the bullet for the total OAL for cycling thru a levergun. With a single shot rifle such as a Sharps, Rolling Block or Rugar #1 or total OAL will determine by where your chamber throat is reamed out to, hence allowing longer bullet outset.

Even though I have shown my 500-gr Bison Buster, I have to seat that bullet well above the driving bands out on the nose to get the proper OAL for cycling. This is not a good way to use this bullet but it is hard enough so not to distroy the driving bands for accuracy purposes.

In reality Tim Sundle, who loads and sells Buffalo Bore Ammunition uses a great bullet knows that his bullet has plenty of penetration and advertises it as 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.) (Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) and it does what he says it will do and is only $48.50 a box of 20.

I for one don't need to be shooting a 430-gr @ 1925 fps, as the butt end will become brutal with felt recoil. But I can load this same bullet to be 1500 fps and aquire the same results without ill effects on my shoulder. I have contacted a bullet maker that makes a very good .458 dia 430-gr WFN GC , and have expressed my desire for a bit larger dia bullet, as Marshal Stanton of Beartooth Bullets has already done the homework on this for the Marlin Guide Guns and the longer 1895 model testing for accuracy. This is why BTB makes not only the 425-gr Pile Driver Jr and 525-gr Pile Drive in .458 dia, but also .459 and .460 dia as he highly recomends the .460 dia for best accuracy in our Guide Guns. Some may ask, why I don't just purchase my cast bullets from Beartooth Bullets or Laser-Cast etc. It is because I want to support a cast bullet maker that is located here in western Montana, who already cast bullets for a cartidge company that has an excellent track record.

A Word About Meplats You will notice when looking at Buffalo Bore Ammunition that the Meplats of what he use for the 45-70, 430-gr WFN bullet are not as wide as Beartooth Bullets or even Garrett Hammerheads. Again Tim has tested and done the homework already, and is very sucessfull with his product.

I could go on and on.

Now having said that I would purchase Garretts for those expensive hunts, if I were hunting BIG coastal brown bears, or going over to Africa, then yes I would @ $70.00 a 20 round box. But, I'm not hunting coastal brown bears here in Montana, and even our bears, black or grizz don't require a 540-gr Hammerhead bullet. I would trust my reloads to anything that we have here.

When I get my new bullets, I will post them up, as well as show my shooting results.

Till then:

 
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